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Irritating co-workers
13 Aug 2007 15:48:05
Re: your Blog on Monday about the different ways of getting under the skin of colleagues, I work in the automotive industry and I find an annoying habit, in a couple of colleagues, is talking loudly, non-stop profanities and sexism. The interesting thing is despite this being the 21st century and most businesses making it clear that such behaviour is unacceptable, the auto industry would be right up there for tolerance of such 'old school' attitudes. The worst mistake you can make is to complain about your colleagues' behaviour as it will lead to you becoming the 'wowser' of the office.
I would be surprised if other readers don't have similar stories.
P.S: Thanks for your Blogs and editorials...My friends and I find them funny, fascinating and frightening. Sarak, Sydney.
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August 16, 2007, 09:46:01
Including salaries in job ads
Dear Kate, As the Director of Mitchell Morley Employment, an employment agency, I wanted to add some comments to your reader's salary frustration in today's Manly Daily. Firstly, I agree that salaries should be advertised, but equally, I understand the reasons behind leaving that information off an advert. I have outlined the reasons why salary information is sometimes advertised and sometimes not.
Reasons in favour of advertising salaries:
1) Attracts qualified applications from candidates who can quickly identify the roles they are interested in, saving time for both the job seeker and the employer.
2) Encourages applications from passive job seekers.
3) Provides employees and employers with market information to promote higher local salaries.
Reasons against advertising salaries:
1) Prevents salary confidentiality which can impact on current employees.
2) Prevents employers from offering varied salaries commensurate with experience and skills.
3) As advertising salaries can discourage generalist applications, limiting an employer's ability to change strategic direction.
4) Prevents the employer from gauging market rates with applications.
However, the example in your column was particularly disturbing and I'm not sure the question was about advertised salaries. More like bringing into question the obligations and (professional?) practices of some employment agencies. The agency involved could easily be described as professionally negligent. As an employment agency we have a duty to our candidates to understand and provide guidance in relation to their salary expectations, and indeed, the candidate should never have been represented for the job without being provided with the job information. As Yvonne rightly mentioned, it ended up being a waste of time and potentially risky for the candidate's current employment stability. Had she been advised in the first instance about salary, but also lead times and recruitment processes, she would never have put her job on the line.
Unfortunately, we are seeing these practices more and more often in our industry and I use this opportunity to warn employees to take control of their applications, making sure they know who their resume is being sent to, what the position is for, and whether the salary range is within their expectations.
Yours sincerely, Suzy Morley, Mitchell Morley Employment, Frenchs Forest, Sydney.
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August 15, 2007, 22:38:49
Be proud of your educational achievements
Message sent: I have just been reading Kate's Blog extensively, after submitting a question regarding my long-term inability to secure a role in marketing, despite having a degree majoring in marketing, and eight years of (regrettable) sales experience.
I was astounded to learn through Kate's Blog that there are people with PhDs who can't get work. If I were running a business I would actively be promoting my business on the basis that I had managed to secure a PhD; arguing, with substance, that I had the 'best-that-money-could-buy'. A PhD - in anything, mind you - is a significant and worthwhile achievement. Everyone who has achieved this 'Everest' need not concern themselves with 'unsophisticates' in the corporatocracy, who are hellbent on ensuring that everyone is "dumbed" [down] in order to subject them to low wages and perpetual job insecurity.
I would like to think one day in the distant future that I might obtain a PhD. Indeed, it is an express goal of mine to achieve this career and personal goal. A milestone that should be rewarded.
My advice to those who have experienced discrimination in this country, on the basis that they have a PhD, is to soldier on. Where you experience discrimination, let the offenders have it 'right between the eyes'. Use your significant mental abilities to leave them in no uncertain terms as to why their behaviour is wrong; the outcome of their poor behaviour, and ultimately, the outcome for the nation, that their poor behaviour precipitates.
It is a national disgrace, that this country is no longer in the economic position to prevent on this relentless dumbing down of the workforce. Australia is fast losing technological superiority in every sector of our economy to China and India. These countries are producing nearly 500,000 PhDs each per year in the sciences alone. Microsoft could have built its Asian Research Department here, yet chose China because we don't produce enough PhDs. Yet, we find out on Kate's Blog that employers and recruiters are wasting the precious intellectual human capital we already have! Whilst it is impossible to maintain that there should be a law about this disgraceful wasted talent and ability, the natural law of logic and commonsense should prevail!
Be proud of our PhDs! "Exposer of Shame", Gosford, NSW
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August 15, 2007, 21:21:26
Career Lift-off & Progression
Hi Kate. Thank you for giving so many job seekers hope and inspiration. My comment is quite similar to Robby from SA, only I am quite a deal older, and still no further advanced along the route to getting my dream job in marketing. I have a degree in business from Newcastle, having graduated with a marketing major in '99. Following this, I immediately sought work in a marketing role - anything as long as it was marketing-related.
Eventually, after many months of searching, I was desperate for work, and took a job as a salesman in the car industry. Now, I have never wanted to be a salesman of any kind, but, what do you do? As I worked, I kept applying for marketing positions, but after eight years of searching, and nearly 1000 applications for marketing roles, I am dismissed from consideration, with the same-old, "you have no experience" gibberish, I heard long ago.
Kate, is the 'sales' work history now working against me? Is marketing a closed shop? Do I need to know a "mover-and-shaker" to get a go? Why are employers so obsessed with experience, that they seem to dismiss the role of genuine qualifications, as an indicator of knowledge, skills and the ability to succeed? Why are there so many people who work in marketing who are not marketing-qualified? Why are marketing-qualified people unable to get into the industries and positions for which they have laboured so long and passionately to achieve?
It is frustrating - to have ambition, drive, eagerness, enthusiasm, knowledge and skills which have been developed over a long period of time and at great expense, not to get a look-in, even for entry-level roles. It is astounding that just under 1000 applications and interviews later, I have advanced no further. I have become typecast and trapped in unrewarding and uninteresting sales jobs. What does someone have to do to get a fair go? I know there are hundreds of thousands of people out there in similar situations. It gets difficult to plan for the future when you realise you can't accept the status quo forever. Your wisdom and advice gives strength and perseverance to so many who are equally, if not more, work oppressed. Matt, Gosford.
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August 15, 2007, 21:07:31
Mining - myths and truths
Dear Kate, Following your article in the Progress Press I need to have a say. I have been trying to get a job in the mines now for over six months and have the skills. I travelled to Perth in the early part of this year and handed out my CV to every agency and builder I could find. I haven't heard back. I'm looking for well-paid/full-time work elsewhere because I can't find it here in Melbourne; I have tried to get full-time work with builders here with out success. I'm currently doing a course in "rigging" to better my prospects, but I've got to say I don't hold out much hope. I have 20 years' experience in the construction industry and have obtained as many skills as I can, most at my own expense. I have been searching for jobs online and applying for some; it seems to be a waiting game! I understand that the industry is 55,000 workers short, so what do you have to do to get a job, if you don't have any experience?
Thanks Kate. David, Melbourne.
Editor's Note: The Australian Drilling Industry Association's chief executive, Simon Fitzgerald, contacted me after my column about mining jobs. Mr Fitzgerald said there are many real opportunities in the drilling industry and his members would welcome some new applicants amongst those who were initially interested in mining. Salaries might not be quite as high but you can earn up to $70k. The work is also hard yakka - like mining - but there is an opportunity to own your own show. He would be happy to hear from any Ask Kate/Kate's Blog readers wanting to get into drilling work. You do not need previous experience but be prepared for hard work:
Executive Officer
Simon Fitzgerald
P.O. Box 3020, Frankston East, Victoria 3199, Australia.
Ph: 03 9770 4000
Fax: 03 9770 4030
Email: adia@adia.com.au
More mining feedback
Hi Kate, Just a short note regarding your article in the Leader a few weeks ago. Our 21-year-old son is working in the mines over in WA; he went over with no qualifications or experience last November.
After many disappointments, a few casual positions, and living in a hostel (not that he complained about the social scene there), he has a full-time position with a fly-in, fly-out job, on a crazy $97k a year.
I think he only got this from persistence. The main thing is you have to be over there to get any job in the mines. Anyway, this is one good story around all the hype. Have a great day.
JM, Rosebud, Victoria
Hi Kate,
I read with interest your article about finding work in the mining industry. My 24-year-old son has just started work in a WA mine, 360km north of Kalgoorlie. From my experience with my son you are correct in stating that unskilled people will find it extremely difficult to quickly get a job in the mines.
My son found work because of three key reasons: 1)Before going, he obtained a heavy equipment operating certificate allowing him to operate large trucks and equipment; 2) He has a recognised trade qualification as a landscaper; 3) He knew somebody already working in the mining industry who was able to 'network' him through the application process.
The money and working conditions are excellent but employees have to deal with working long hours two weeks on, one week off, on an industrial site that's alcohol free and isolated, far from family and friends.
My son is also working with his female partner (ex-banking industry) who also gained her heavy equipment certificate before going. They plan to save for two years and then buy a home back here. Excellent on-site accommodation is available for couples.
In summary, the mines are not a pot of gold at the end of a magic rainbow. If young people are considering such work and want to maximise their chances of finding employment, they should: a) Devise a plan based on the right reasons and have clear goals; b)Research opportunities and the necessary skills required, via the Internet and employment agencies, etc; c)Obtain some of those skills.
Even then, the thought of isolation may deter many.
Nigel, Frankston.
Kate, In reference to your article entitled Mining Mystery, my husband was able to go and work in Karratha, Western Australia. The advice you have received is fairly close to the mark...once you associate with other mineworkers you are "in like Flynn"! Inexperienced workers can easily be employed by contacting the operator of the mines, or yes, deal through someone who works in one. We could not believe how easy it was for my husband to be recruited into the industry over in WA. Likewise, two of our friends now work in WA as security people at the mines - 12-hour days maybe, but they are EACH paid $100k. Again, they just got in contact with the mine site and progressed from there. It's not that hard. The stories in the media about a "boom" are totally correct - we are living proof of that - $60 plus, an hour, for unskilled work - and there is plenty of it. Valerie, Junction Village, Victoria.
Hi Kate,
Just finished reading your article "Mining Job Options" in The Mercury 11/08/07. Very interesting. Could you please pass on the list of website addresses that you mentioned? I tried to find them but did not have any success. Thanks again, Gary, Hobart, Tasmania.
August 15, 2007 14:13:00
Dear Kate, I have just finished reading your small article about the mining boom in WA. I have also been left wondering how these unskilled people can obtain the positions you mentioned. I have been gathering a lot of information on the mining sector in WA and what requirements are called for by the mining industry. Let me outline these for you: 1/Skills eg heavy machine operators. Experience is very important, but minimum is OK as well. Those interested can partake in training courses to obtain tickets to gain a start in the mining/construction industry and acquire the necessary skills. Kate, if you would like to find out more, go to www.gowestnow.com.au Kindest regards, Tony Dunn, Melbourne.
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August 13, 2007 15:48:05
Irritating co-workers
Re: your Blog on Monday about the different ways of getting under the skin of colleagues, I work in the automotive industry and I find an annoying habit, in a couple of colleagues, is talking loudly, non-stop profanities and sexism. The interesting thing is despite this being the 21st century and most businesses making it clear that such behaviour is unacceptable, the auto industry would be right up there for tolerance of such 'old school' attitudes. The worst mistake you can make is to complain about your colleagues' behaviour as it will lead to you becoming the 'wowser' of the office.
I would be surprised if other readers don't have similar stories.
P.S: Thanks for your Blogs and editorials...My friends and I find them funny, fascinating and frightening. Sarak, Sydney.
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August 7, 2007
Stigma robs everyone
There are at last people speaking out about their struggles/journeys with mental illness if you just take a look around. Imagine where some companies and teaching institutions would be if these amazing people had not worked. What about Nobel Laureate John Nash, the brilliant mathematician portrayed by Russell Crowe on screen. Or legal scholar at University of Southern California Gould School of Law, Elyn Saks who has just written a book about her journey with schizophrenia. What an accomplished woman - valedictorian at Vanderbilt University, honors gradate at Yale Law School, scholar at Oxford. She says she has written the book "to give hope to people who suffer from schizophrenia and understanding to people who don't". Professor Saks specializes in mental health law. Also, read this article about writer and painter Philippa King from Times Online. She is doing much to tackle the stigma of schizophrenia by talking about her own experience. She also mentions Stuart Baker-Brown, a fellow sufferer who is hoping to become the first person with schizophrenia to climb Mount Everest. Mr Brown, Brisbane.
August 5, 2007
I have suffered from acute anxiety and panic attacks for a number of years. With help and medication the situation is manageable and I contribute well to my chosen profession. Indeed, no one from my last three jobs has known of my condition - that is how long it has been since it was debilitating enough for me to take a chunk of time out of the workforce. It was very difficult when I first returned. Forms about medical history or the prospect of being quizzed about my career gap at job interviews was enough to bring the anxiety buzzing around me once again. It is very hard for anyone who has not been there to truly understand the stigma, shame and frustrations of having a "mental condition". Saying that, I have heard people with physical conditions such ads cancer and MS also speak of their wish to conceal their medical histories for fear of being judged - not just by employers but by co-workers and even friends. What a limited lot we humans are. LJ, Sydney
August 2, 2007
Kate, regarding your post about mental illness, stigma and employment opportunities, and the case is not helped by inflammatory and or ignorant reporting by media. There are so many people living as successfully as they can with various conditions including schizophrenia. It was fantastic to see the recent "Choir of Hard Knocks" on the ABC. One of those singers had suffered from schizophrenia and he presented as this really special, good looking young man. A far cry from the usual depiction of a knife wielding maniac. Depression has enjoyed a celebrity embrace with many famous people coming forward and speaking publicly about their experiences. While it is not yet free of stigma, depression does not have the shame stamp it once carried. Other mental illnesses have not attracted the same level of public education. We are far from there. Keep writing about this topic. Gwenie, Hobart.
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July 25, 2007
Mature age issue
Hello Kate , I have seen a couple of your articles in the local Frankston paper (I clipped it, so not sure which one), discussing employment for mature age. I also checked out a couple of your Blog items including the one's [on] PhD's. Congratulations on your efforts, but I find it hard to believe that there are any real pro-mature age employers. I was part of an executive group in Sydney which was lobbying for support. They had some from the Office of Ageing, but since then, state and federal governments have cut funds for any mature age programs "because unemployment is so low". In practice, us oldies don't show up because most of us professionals had the brains and chance to save enough to stuff up any chance of support through Centrelink or any other agency. Single people like me have had nowhere to go, psychologically or anything else. I have always been a survivor, but have reached a point of "stuff it". And still we hear platitudes that some agencies and employers may be interested in us, except that we never get anywhere with them.
What do we do? It is getting worse, not better. Today, I was at a bank where the manager had apologised for an employee who did not have the delegation to authorise a moderately complex document - he had been there only 3 months. She thought she was experienced with three years in the bank, but with the advantage of "starting young" at 19, so being younger, she had "a better capacity to learn". I commented that this was what too many employers thought - that the young had it all, despite the mistakes, so where did people over 40 stand? I had already taken her to task for lack of processing the form. In fact, I had known previously that she was out of depth and knowledge on superannuation and SMSF's. But what would we oldies know about such things?
In fact, it is worse than that. I have a Bachelor of Engineering with honours in electronics plus technical teaching qualifications. Practically all those jobs have gone offshore along with any belief that we can do anything in this government-forsaken country except dig rocks out of the ground. The Victorian Institute of Teaching has ensured that I can't teach maths or IT, as I did in NSW, and TAFE is so over-supplied with teachers that that door is closed. I have done many other things from counselling to manage projects and people, but what the hell? The real problem is not that we can't learn, or even (sometimes) that there aren't a few employers who believe we can. The crux is that they know we are not gullible; that we won't swallow everything we're told and allow ourselves to be moulded to the employer's personal whims, idiocies and prejudices, as the twenty some-things will.
Regards and keep plugging
Geoff Payne, Seaford, Victoria
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July 10, 2007
Prejudice fuels unemployment
We are supposed to be living in a non prejudice society, however, time & time again both employers & recruitment agencies show no respect nor value the skills that someone in my age group can offer employers.
Even in your article 8/6, reference (Peter Costello's report) is so far removed from reality and is an indication that nobody truly recognizes the biased towards mature aged potential employees.
I read your article "Tide is Turning" 8/6 in the Central Coast Express Advocate. It listed a number of mature-age friendly recruitment agencies, however, none of these agencies are located on the Central Coast. I have found this problem with employers & agencies particularly bad on the Coast and would appreciate any assistance you may have to offer. I will continue to search for employment knowing full well my success rate is very limited. As you can tell I am very frustrated. JG, Toukley, NSW
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July 9, 2007
Census help wanted
I heard that there is a site along the lines of http://www.ecensus.net/ that provides detailed information on census forms. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Darren Perlman, Melbourne.
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July 23, 2007
Bullies
I heard Kate speak on radio about bullies in the office. I am a strong personality and have always regarded myself as more than able to stand up and make my views known. I travelled the world in my twenties and had no problem adapting to situations or taking on a new job with strangers in strange lands. Fast forward a decade or so to present day Melbourne and my job at a telco and a female boss who is a first rate bully. I won't go into the whole sorry saga but suffice to say that all of us on the team finally decided to take action and we went to her boss. The result was specially arranged seminars, which she had to attend, about workplace bullies and how to cope with bully managers. She was not fired though but transferred to another team - if only they had attended the same seminar. I do hear she is somewhat milder now and at least being watched but why wasn't she fired? She made our lives a total misery for 15 months. I just don't get why bullies are so protected and victims so vulnerable. Puzzled, Melbourne.
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Bullies
I was most interested to read the article on workplace bullying in The Geelong Advertiser. I work as SSO (integration Aide) at a local Primary School and am a victim of workplace bullying and harassment. I was deliberately harassed by the class teacher with a pet rat. She knew, just as the principal and vice principal knew, that I had an extreme phobia of rats. The class teacher even admitted that I went hysterical when we spoke about the pet rat. Guidelines were put in place to protect me.
These guidelines were not followed by the teacher or vice principal. I have been that guidelines are just that, they don't have to be followed! The teacher taunted and harassed me with the rat for a few weeks before she deliberately exposed me to the rat at a school assembly. When I tried to report the incident to the Acting Principal he didn't want to deal with it - he had more pressing matters to deal with! The Principal was at school but says he wasn't alerted about the incident. He went on long service leave unaware of the incident. The Acting Principal refused to listen to listen to me - I cried too much! He was prepared to talk to the perpetrator though and thus gained a very one-sided report.
It appeared as though he didn't stop to think why a normally happy person was always crying. I tried to work through the constant bullying, but eventually WorkCover put me on stress leave. When the principal eventually returned, he appeared to be caring. He even said that no one should be treated in the way I had been. He promised to resolve the incident. Yet, 10 months later the issue remains unresolved. The teacher continues to bully and harass me (actually drove her car at me at the end of Term 1) and has punished me more than her. The final insult has recently occurred when he stated that he had reason to believe that I was unable to carry out might duties at work. He refused to say whether had been a complaint about me, what his reasons were for making such a statement etc.
Whenever he asks if I have any questions he refuses to answer because" we're not here to discuss that". The Dept and Union tell me legal action is not the way to go, yet my treating doctors think I should have taken legal action already. What do you do? How do you reach a resolution when the principal is unwilling to speak about the incident? Meanwhile this teacher continues on her merry way bullying staff members, particularly SSO's. Distressed.
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July 14, 2007
Resume holes a target
Another form of prejudice I have found with Recruitment Agencies is when they see "holes" in your resume and are immediately "suspicious"!!!!!
Whether one has time out for family, study, overseas travel or whatever - it could be illness or any number of other issues - maybe some people don't need work sometimes because they have other means of income or support - but some recruiters seem to have the attitude that if you were not in the workplace at a particular time or length of time, then you must be rusty or lacking in your skills somehow or other?!
I have been typing for decades - one doesn't forget how to type! Because I stayed at home with children for some months or years, doesn't mean I'm any less adept in answering a phone or processing invoices!
An agency recently pressed me for exact months within a year that I finished one job and started another, etc. I had job-hopped that particular year (going back 4-5 years ago mind you!!!!), and some of the jobs I did were totally irrevalent to the work I was applying for, so for that reason I didn't put them on my resume. Most recruiters and employers - I've been told - are generally only interested in what you've been doing currently or going back the past 2-3 years. No-one wants to know or really cares what you did 5,10,20 years ago!
I felt that the recruiter remained "suspicious" and was not convinced by anything I said because I couldn't give her exact months in this particular year that I'd done a variety of things, and therefore I went home that evening dug out all my PAYG statements, explained that I'd just come out of a marriage collapse and been through quite a traumatic period at that point in my life - which was totally none of her business by the way - and as a result she received a 3 page letter from me the next day fully explaining everything, ie, why I had job-hopped, what I'd done in between jobs, etc, etc. (Really, who cares?!)
I don't know what school these recruitment people come from, but as this woman said to me, apologetically, after she had read my letter, they do have a duty of care to their clients. Well I say they must be very careful that they are not breaching people's privacy, and judging by their interviewing techniques, some of them are really over-stepping the mark.
So, Kate, please publish this letter as a warning to recruitment agencies who adopt this tact, because it can be seen as discriminatory, and they need to be much more careful. If people withhold certain information from their resume, that should be at their own discretion, and particularly because more often than not, there is nothing "suspicious" about it or it's probably totally irrelevant!
Any recruiter or potential employer is free to do a police check otherwise, and that should suffice! Not to mention all the other tests and crap they put you through repeatedly from one agent to the next anyway. How many other readers have had a similar experience I wonder? KF, Dakabin, Queensland.
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8 July, 2007 12:35:54
Discrimination in goods and services and education
Hello, I am concerned about age discrimination and access to education and goods and services. I am a mature age student, who is retraining. I have faced much discrimination and some ill health and now find that age is a barrier to accessing student conferences such as the Liberty and Society Conference being run by the Centre for Independent Studies. They are excluding mature-age students from their conference to be held in September. Marcus, Adelaide.
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6 July, 2007 13:07:19
Job networks
Hi, I would also like to make a comment that I have had no help out of the job networks at all, in fact I have found them to be incredibly rude/aggressive and very, very unhelpful-to say the least.
I think a lot of the people that "work" at these job networks shouldn't be there at all. They have no intention of helping anyone. I think the government is also "hiding" the true unemployment rate, it has been for many years. "Country" South Australia.
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2 July, 2007 19:38:52
Over 60 but plenty to offer
Dear Kate, like 1000s I am looking for employment. I have 3 qualifications in teaching, a Cert. IV in Business, a degree in Administration and a Cert. of online facilitator. Am I over qualified and make people nervous? I have just turned 60. Help. TDS, Townsville, North Queensland.
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